Talk:Great War

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Broad outline
This is a primarily Sarpedon centric war which revolves primarily around Caphirian interests in expansion. This is a war fought between Caphiria, Vachena, and potentially Burgundie against Pelaxia, Cartadania, Veltorina, and potentially Kiravia. There is a small global element here, especially between Burgundie, Caphiria, and Kiravia, but for the most part the big slug matches are on Sarpedon. Maybe Faskano Strait is incorporated, maybe not, but internationally this takes the complexion of maybe the summation of the long-running Kiro-Burgundie colonial wars.

The war ends with the outright annexation of Veltorina and the chastening of Pelaxia and Cartadania. Maybe they lost territory, up to them. Recall at this point Caphiria has the southern area now part of Slak/Once part of Valcenia. Maybe Vachena gets annexed here? That's up to Insui. Caphiria ends with continental hegemony. Pelaxia and Cartadania seek allies abroad to prevent this from happening again, and start looking towards Urcea as part of a broader strategy to surround Caphiria.

Possible 1890s version
Based on Burg's timing suggestion below, an 1890s First Great War could take on a global complexion with a series of minor colonial skirmishes and domestic wars in Urcea and the Cape (Red Interregnum and Cape's first War of independence, respecively) with Kiro-Caphiric and Burgundie influenced factions on both sides, maybe elsewhere. In this way the "global war" element will ultimately be kind of a Seven Year's War situation, where there is good fighting elsewhere but the majority of committed resources remain in Sarpedon. Burg suggested including Faskano Strait and that may play well with the Cape's war, I'm unsure.

A good concept may include Greg FitzRex of Urcea, the Crown Regent, promising Talionia (Dorhaven) to Caphiria upon the completion of Urcea's Red Interregnum civil war in exchange for Caphirian aid and arms - I'm thinking a similar arrangement between Austria and France wherein Austria would give France the Austrian Netherlands in exchange for help securing Silesia. Caphiria makes a light effort but due to a lack of care about it in addition to Burgundie naval superiority no real Caphirian help arrives. Accordingly upon the restoration Patrick III obviously disavows ceding Talionia, and Caphiria feels burned since it was "promised" the territory, setting the stage for the Second Great War.

ADDENDUM: I fucked this up. Burgundie and Caphiria couldn't be on the same side if the Interregnum is a theater of the war. It would have to be Kiravia on the Caphirian side and Burgundie on the allied side. That's unfortunate since I wanted the swap of Caphiria and Burgundie on the same side, but it's probably not possible.

Timing considerations
It should feature all the familiar accoutrement of industrialized warfare, so trenches, big howitzers, machine guns, dreadnoughts, etc., but should probably remain a generation before the bigger second war. The original lore of a Great Depression in 1909 and beyond may be a good point for this, so perhaps a 6 year war 1909-1915. It could be earlier to differentiate it from IRL WW1. We don't want to be accused of being derivative.

The BURG Blowup Suggestion
Burg wrote, on 1/18/22:

''I am interested in this. I will work backwards into what you all decide. I like the idea of it being an eruption of the Kiro-Burg wars. I think I am going to retconn most of the New Burg Secession war in favor of giving the Faskano Strait War more of my attention when I can get to it. It's going to be a mutiny, not a full-on civil war. I like the concept of Heku getting vindictive after GW1 and leaning in on the Derics to kick off the second frat to get GW2 rolling.

I love the idea of a very late 1800s GW1 the, I know you hadn't pushed it back THAT far but I could really dig it. Regardless, its going to look like the late 1800s for the Burgs at least, lol. I think it will be a good watershed for the death of the Les Grand Fops in the military high command. How is this going to play with the Red Interreggnum?''

This timing would help keep the tech implications on GW2 less, since mass machine guns and big siege howitzers etc. would not be available during this time and tanks/airplanes could not be produced. It would allow GW2 to unfold more or less as presently shaped (1914-18 of doctrinal developments in about a year) and allow for a Red Interregnum tie in. It's an interesting thought.

Burg
To wear the shit out of the following uniforms. Also to have a punch up with Kiravia but lets face it, its the uniforms for me dawg. Also Yonbon, we join too, Volonderres baby Yondie, mien freund do you want your guys to be in all grey uniforms. I am thinking of the third to last photo, the guy in Madagascar kit? Kool by me

First Great War (DRAFT)
First Great War (1896-1902)

Main Participants
"Allies"/"The Aliança"

Cartadania Pelaxia Burgundie (+ Yonderrian volunteers) Veltorina

"Concordiae Powers"

Caphiria Kiravia Vachena (?)

Side Theater Participants
The Cape (1st Independence War, Burg-aligned 1896-97, neutral 1897-99, Kir aligned 1899-1902)+Fhainnin republican volunteers Urcean Legitimists (Red Interregnum, aligned with Burgundie) Urcean Regalists (RI, aligned with Caphiria) Random Deric countries (RI only) Carna (Mostly just in the RI) Alstin Natalia Arcerion Paulastra

Theaters
Sarpedon - Main theater of combat South Levantia - Mostly Red Interregnum related and mostly Urcean domestic fighting with Burgundie and Deric assistance Crona - Faskano Strait/Capetian Independence War, Arcer-Paul War, Natalia War Global - Random small colonial skirmishes including Kiro-Alstin coalition forces against Burg

Result
Veltorina ANNEXED by Caphiria Vachena partly annexed by Cartadania during the war; rest swallowed a few years later Pelaxia and Cartadania chastened; land lost? de Weluta restored in Urcea Cape independence achieved Talionia pretext for next war Seváronsa becomes Kiravian; that whole archipelago is partitioned between Kiravia and Alstin Washakara condominium established Alstin presumably gains some other lands from Burg or whomever Natalia partitioned between Paulastra and the Cape; portions Paulastra gets are former Julian Belt portions taken by Cartadania during the Cronan Beaver War

Timeline of Events
1. Background; Veltorina becomes independent (1782) and Socialist (1860s); Caphiria seeks repatriation, tensions elevate on Sarpedon, Pelaxia and Cartadania guarantee/ally Veltorina (1880s) Caphiria invades Veltorina (1896) 2. Sarpedon War main theater rages beginning in 1896. Caphiria calls in Kiravia for their naval resources/manpower/etc due to preexisting ties with promise of Cartadanian islands etc. Burgundie jumps in on the allied side as a result of this in order to prevent themselves from being locked out of Crona. If Burg or Kir have better lore to explain their involvement, that will be used instead 3. After plotting and various stuff, the uprising in Urcea starts (1897) launching the Red Interregnum. Caphiria and the FitzRexist regime ally (they are already close) and FitzRex promises Talioinia to Caphiria if he wins if Caphiria helps. Carna joins the war on the side of the legitimists, drawing its semi-colony Arcerion also into the conflict against Paulastra which is on friendly terms and is somehow involved in the war. A short war over Washakara starts in Crona 4. NRA Government in the Cape begins uprisings and declares independence (1897) initially with Burger support. Kiravian government concedes the issue in exchange for kicking out Burgers, which the Cape does and becomes neutral (1897). 5. Seeing opportunity to take Cart/Burg colonies, Alstin joins the war on the side of Kiravia and Caphiria (1897). Presumably they maybe take some of their current IRL islands from this conflict 6. Paul-Arcer War ends (1898) with establishment of Washakara condominium, beginning long friendship. 7. The Cape begins its war against Natalia (1899), officially joining sides with the Kiro-Caphirian faction but largely standing as a cobelligerent; Paulastra also invades 8. Red Interregnum ends with Legitimists restored (1902) 9. End of war. Veltorina destroyed (1902)

Broad outline
The overall conflict would primarily be Urcea, Burgundie, Fiannria, Cartadania, and Pelaxia (with the Cape as a cobelligerent) against Caphiria, Faneria, and Crona with Corumm, the Audonian revolutionaries, the Derian revolutionaries being cobelligerents.

This war takes on the broad global characteristics of the current version of the Great War, with Veltorina simply eliminated from the equation. Caphiria's goals here are similar, expanding and maintaining its hegemony by means of conquest of Dorhaven (now Talionia) which it more or less views as the final impediment to its continental dominion. Abroad, the Audonians and Corummese are still interested in defeating Burgundie's influence. The Fin-Fan war will proceed as planned. Accordingly, the first two years present a "siege" situation for Burgundie and Urcea, with Kuhlfros playing his traditional role of supporting the Derians until he needs Urcea. This is all driven by Caphiria, who supports the Derians in order to divert Urcea's attentions to conquer Talionia. This can provide its own spark, or there's a "Capetian angle". A Caphirian-aligned ally in Crona invades the Cape, scaring Cartadania and Pelaxia into creating a formal alliance with Urcea; Caphiria then reacts to this latest example of "Creep" by initiating the Derian uprising with Fanerian assistance. Caphiria need not declare war on Urcea until maybe the second or third year of the war, preparing to build up as Urcea drains more resources and manpower in Dericania.

The rest of the war proceeds basically as planned in the current version of the conflict. Once declared, Caphiria will overrun Dorhaven and begin western offensives, sort of trying to do a "reverse Schlieffen" by knocking Dorhaven out first. Dorhaven will be largely overrun but maybe the peninsula or just the island will hold. Urcea will end up having to do a MacArthur-in-Korea type reclamation, marching up the peninsula gradually. Urcea also opens the southern front where Valcenia used to be and pushes with Pelaxia and Cartadania in the west. Caphiria is now losing by the 7th or 8th year of the war and is on its back foot, but still fighting. A breakthrough on all fronts seems imminent and Caphirian forces collapse in Dorhaven from defending on three fronts. However, as Urcean troops now seem poised to not only liberate the Kingdom but also begin their invasion of Caphiria proper from the east (which threatens Venceia due to its positioning in a way that the western invasions just can't), Caphiria unleashes its secret weapon in year nine. An advanced force of Urcean R&IA troops - not a large contingent by any means, for diplomatic/political reasons I (Urcea) will get into - are annihilated by the first nuclear detonation ever recorded. This should probably be in a small Dorhavener city in order to build enmity between Talionians and Caphirians. The power of this weapon gives Urcea pause and they stop advancing. The Caphirians by this point could not hit Crona, Levantia, or likely even Pelaxia or Cartadania, but they can still use strategic weapons in Dorhaven. While they could have hit a larger formation or bigger city, the bombing was not tactical but strategic - Venceia wanted to make a point and draw people to the negotiating table, not enrage them or strengthen their resolve.

The partition of occupied Caphirian lands proceeds as in the current version of the war, but Caphirian independence is maintained. The League of Nations is created in order to prevent wars like this from happening again, but the whole thing has the air of unfinished business to it, leading to the Cold War. It has been suggested that the LoN form out of an existing wartime organization of the allies intended for this purpose but with Caphiria just grafted onto it as an equal partner. That's a possibility.

Timing considerations
In Levantia, there are a handful of hard dates now that may need to be played into or revised as needed. The abdication of the Burg Emperor in 1920 leads to Urcea being elected to stabilize the situation in the HLE. I don't see any reason why the disorder and chaos in the run up to the war couldn't be elongated, so that 1920 date could remain. In the present canon, the 1927-35 phase of the war leads to the dissolution of the HLE in 1935. I don't know of any real lore that relies on that other than the timing of the 2nd and 3rd Fratricide, but we can just play around with that timeline. The Establishment of the LU/Deric States in 1953 is an important date and coincides with the League's establishment. Generally, the DS could be established a few years earlier without much incident (and should probably predate the LU. The LU is a little more important but maybe a predecessor institution established as a wartime necessity lasts with additional members joining until 1953 when it is fused with the DS and Kuhlfros. Alternatively we could just make the LU be established earlier.

The League of Nations establishment in 1953 is not too important to the lore but some general flavor text dates (including in off-wiki documents) will need to be revised.

The broad issue is with technological advancement. The current GW essentially features industrial warfare ala WW1 with some minor alterations during its early phase, with historical/technological developments in this respect being slightly retarded compared to our timeline but by the time of the war's end the technology is ahead of time. I (Urc) have always liked this complexion. We need not have mere industrial warfare in this one since we are adding a GW, but some "catching up and surpassing" type 2nd Great War is a fundamentally good idea in my view.

There are also some nation-specific considerations. Lots of countries seem to have major changes during wartime, especially Carna and the Cape. I think the Cape's trevails can be well tied into the war, but keeping an "event" happening in the 40s seems like it is deferential to these players.

Lastly, people have expressed interest in a shorter war. I (Urc) agree; 27 years is too long even if the original concept was decent. I like the neat concept of a 9 year war, with each bit comprising 3 year phases. The first 3 years are the Levantine "siege" period and the initial Crona war, with the Audonian War and Second Fratricide happening similtaneously. The 2nd phase is the "Sarpedon War Proper", wherein Caphiria invades Dorhaven and the two western allies jump in, with the reclamation beginning probably in the latter half of this while Urcea focuses on side theaters. I think Fin-Fan would also begin during Phase 2, with Kuhlfros being pro-Derian in Phase 1. The third phase would be the "end game" period, wherein Caphiria is steadily losing basically everywhere. Maybe Faneria capitulates or peaces out or whatever during this third phae.

Caphiria
ICly and OOCly, Heky has a fixation on Dorhaven. Manipulating the internal affairs of the Derians in order to distract the Urceans to the point where taking Dorhaven is achievable is realistic ICly and OOCly.

Vithinja
Need to suffer a major (probably naval) defeat to cause internal crisis causing republic to be overthrown. Current idea is for Caergwynn and Vithinja to have mutual defense pact which is violated (probably either by Faneria or Fiannria that drags Vithinja into the war. Vithinja will likely exit the war early just to reenter late taking little part.

Levantia
See Broad outline for now

Sarpedon
See Broad outline for now

Audonia

 * Burgundie (and Urcea) supporting Bulkh against Puhktunkhwa
 * Burgundie (and Urcea) vs anti-occidentalists on Salarive
 * Burgundie (and Urcea) supporting Umardwal against Caphirian-backed Zaclaria (potentially the catalyst for them becoming a crown protectorate?)

Alshar

 * Alshari Western Theater: Burgundie (and Urcea) supporting Jalqolak vs Corummese invasion (includes the Corummese occupation of Ayermer for a time)
 * Alshari Eastern Theater: Burgundie (and Urcea) supporting Pukhgundi vs anti-occidentalists

Crona

 * Veroui Revolt- Ethnically Burgoignac-Veroui people revolt (supported by Alstin and Burgundie) against Ehemoan rule to establish Veraise which becomes an autonamous territory of Alstin at the end of the war.